The AGELESS Way | Dr. Karen Sands

Today I invite you to explore the Ageless Way.

Karen is the epitome of the creative and innovative AGELESS way I am seeking and exploring.  In this episode, I have a rich conversation with Leading GeroFuturist and thought leader on the Longevity Economy and Ageless Aging Karen Sands.

Let's live well.  

Let's consider what is it you'd like to be when you grow up? Perhaps now the question is feels more real, more possible? 

Is it still current? 

Do you still wish to follow the path you’re on? 

• Discover how age is an asset, not a liability
• The new story of our age
• Michelle’s secret thoughts [Michelle St Jane  8:06]

“The idea of longevity versus aging brought me to the ageless way.”  [Karen Sands  10:29]  

Knowledge Bomb

Are you facing times of Volatility, Uncertainty, Complexity & Ambiguity (VUCA times)?  [Karen Sands 34:33]
The Greatness Challenge Book for the times we are living in now [Karen Sands 35:35]

About the Guest

KAREN SANDS, MCC, BCC, a high-impact Certified Master & Mentor Coach for visionary world shakers, conscious entrepreneurs, and change-makers who are ready to shape the world and their role in it. A Trusted Advisor and expert authority on midlife, Boomers, and women 40+ for go-getters who want to stay in sync with the people who keep them in business. #1 Amazon Best Selling Author, Firecracker Speaker, and All-Around Game Changer.

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 weekly Future Proof Forums karensands.com/vuca
hot off the press “Future Proof: Reinvention for the New Normal” 
“HerStory” based on my bestseller "The Ageless Way”

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Transcript

Michelle St Jane  0:01  

Karen, welcome. I'm so grateful that you were available for today. And I'm going to launch right in.  What did you want to be when you grew up when you were growing up? 

Karen Sands  0:11  

Oh my god, it's such a funny question to ask because I probably would have normally answered it this way. I remember, I had all these visions and dreams and you know, stories that I was making as a little kid that I was going to be a female Robinhood. But I would be on a motorcycle. I had all these visions in my head of zooming around, and I was helping all these people. And I haven't thought about that in a very, very, very long time. Thank you for asking.

Michelle St Jane  0:48  

When I was growing up, I wanted to be an Intergalactic Explorer. I was into Star Trek and Lost in Space. You know, I remember sitting in front of a black and white TV watching Neil Armstrong stepping on the moon. And I thought I'd like to do that.  Fascinating. Yes.

Then in one of my careers, I got right on the fringe of financing rocket and satellites launches. Then realized, Oh, my gosh, we're creating space junk! That's not acceptable. So I veered  off of that career. Now, I just practice being a galactic stratospheric thinker. How's that?

Karen Sands  1:34  

That works much better.

Michelle St Jane  1:37  

I love the fact that you're on the leading is a gerofuturist. Could you talk to that?

Karen Sands  1:43  

Yes, definitely.  It took me a long time to get that to get to that. Well, now, it's probably 10-15 years ago, I kept feeling like I was not only bifurcated, I was probably trifurcated. In terms of who am I, and how is I presenting myself, and I would get stuck on elevator speeches, which I think are a joke anyway. But I would get stuck on them. Because how do you describe the kind of prism thinking that I do, and the way in which I pull strands together is not something you easily describe? Right? So I bounced from, it really kind of goes back to your question, what did I want to be when I grew up, and what I ended up being was an educator very early on. Now, I'm 76.  ...thank you for your mouth dropping, um, that was a compliment, I appreciate.

2:43  

In the time that I was making those choices, women were told we're either gonna be nurses or administrators or secretaries or educators, teachers, at that time. And it was a hard choice. But it was not a hard choice for me to become an educator, because I fell in love with the sciences and biology. And so for me, I was untapping potential, and that has stayed with me my entire life. And as educator my entire life you never know how that's gonna turn right. As I went along, I acquired these specialties as a thought leader. One is in gerontology. Right? Another is as a futurist, as a master coach, and it goes on and on. 

3:31  

I remember one day I said, "How am I going to do a big presentation? How am I going to explain this, and this and this and this?" It never kind of makes sense to me. And it suddenly hit me Of course, you're an example of a renaissance woman and/or man actually.  But a professional in that we acquire all these specialties. And in my case, it made sense then to combine them. So I combined gerontologist which I am and futurist to make gerofuturist.  Gerofuturing is a new area of study, which is the study of the future and the study of the future of aging and longevity, with my twist, especially around women and their role in the future, and that's how your futures came to be.

Michelle St Jane  4:23  

How fabulous. Well, as I shared with you earlier, you're one of my heroes. I turned 60 last year, and during this quarantine, put myself into a fourth career as a podcaster.

Karen Sands  4:38  

Good on you. Absolutely.

Michelle St Jane  4:41  

You know, I have three degrees from three different schools. My first degree is in law. My second, a master's in philanthropy and lastly my doctorate is in leadership. 

Karen Sands  4:53  

Oh, perfect.

Michelle St Jane  4:55  

I am passionate about access to justice and social justice. Generally, I am passionate about how do we serve? And it's not just about giving money but also our time and talent and expertise. I'm passionate about leadership because I've been in leadership roles. I've walked into broker million dollar deals, only to have the men around the board table have give me their coffee order.

Karen Sands  5:22  

I remember that. Well, would you take the notes, please?

Michelle St Jane  5:28  

I love what you said about your choices.  You could be to be a nurse or secretary. Well, let me tell you, my typing speeds are huge, but my accuracy is now fantastic. But at high school, I was a C student, I was failing everything. It was just that, you know, I just didn't fit.

Karen Sands  5:48  

Exactly.

Michelle St Jane  5:49  

I have always spoken truth to power. Right. That does not work well, in the old system.

5:58  

As a young professional, I was one of those people who did two years and moved. I can remember people would say to me, where are you now? What are you doing now? Like, it was a bad thing, right? Last century people didn't like that you didn't stay in the same job for life. And I wrestled with feeling like a failure. This century well, hey, I'm just jumping careers and academia.

Karen Sands  6:30  

It is the way people need to be today. We were kind of pioneers doing that that was not typical. But now it's, you know, seven, eight careers in a lifetime is the norm.

Michelle St Jane  6:45  

Thank you. I started I decided to do my doctorate at 50. And what led my thinking was: * somebody put on LinkedIn that your last career change could be at 100 and it resonated with me. Then when I looked at my health profile, I could live to 125. Health is my wealth. Oh, and at the time, neuroscience was telling us then best brain was aged over 50 it just didn't like to be stressed. 

7:17  

Well, at that time, I was still practicing law and teaching law. Working 80 - hundred hour weeks. I did not like it and came to a full stop at the age of 50 and said, "You know, I'm going back to school!" And started wondering again what I want to be when I grow up?  A question I asked again this year and shock and behold, eight weeks later, I had a podcast.

Karen Sands  7:47  

And really not shocking, it's a way of expressing and sharing with the world. What you've brought together to get you to this point its maturity, it just is. It's the maturation process for everybody.

Michelle St Jane  8:06  

I love those words, because I saw in some of your writing, you would talk you spoke of moving from the 'verdant spring, to the vibrant autumn.' Those words, so resonated with me.  In my 40s and 50s my secret thoughts were what do I want to be when I grow up? Now I'm like, I can be whatever I want whenever I decide to grow up again or go in a different direction.

Karen Sands  8:31  

Exactly, because it all goes with you.

Michelle St Jane  8:33  

Absolutely. Now I'm very solid. My soul's wishes are to serve and contribute. I'm very solid. And if it doesn't align with my values, I'm not available. I've had a fabulous mentor who said to me, "Michelle, turn your hands over and put your heart on. Do not pick up anyone else's stuff!"

Karen Sands  9:00  

 Oh, I love that. That's great.

Michelle St Jane  9:02  

My default thinking goes like this. Can I help here? Can I take that for you?

Karen Sands  9:08  

Like, forget about it.

Michelle St Jane  9:10  

There a days when I actually do the hand signals just to kind of remind myself.

Karen Sands  9:17  

Yeah, the anchors it hands off not on. I love it.

Michelle St Jane  9:23  

I would love to hear more about your work as a strategic advisor for longevity. It's a hot topic, isn't it?

Karen Sands  9:31  

It is a hot topic. When I started all of this work on longevity and aging, I started in my early 40s really. And it came out of a personal story. I had no choice in the matter if anyone had told me I would be doing what I'm doing. Back then I would have been kicking and screaming there's no way I want to go in that direction. Women's issues, Leadership issues, yes. The future, yes. But aging? 

10:05  

I'm so grateful that I'm in this world. The point of the longevity is that it is of an even greater import to young people. Because they are going to be living past 100. Because they are making the future that we're going to be living in. They are going to be creating it. I hope we co-created again. The idea of longevity versus aging brought me to the ageless way. 

10:39  

The way in which we speak to and refer to and where aging is the negative everything of late, especially if you can put $ amount oil or financial amount on excuse me, globally, is anti-aging. 

10:55  

Please understand me I use all the best, you know, facial cosmetics and body creams, there's no doubt about it. I still want to look my freshest, right. But I'm, I'm proud of my age I'm and I'm proud that I got here for that. That's the best part of it. 

11:11  

So it's more about the longevity. If we can take that view, it's a long view. And that is important to young people as to how are they planning.  They can take their time to explore, because they're going to have so many opportunities, so many careers, and the future is is wide open for them. 

11:35  

That's also true for us it those of us that are in a third stage or fourth stage, as I am. There is still tremendous opportunities for us. This is not the time to sit in your rocking chair, this is the time to show up. The idea of aging is to be its ageless. That is the goal. Where age does not define us. Our maturity may define us because we're more resilient, because we have more experience to draw from.  But not so much about our chronological age. So that's really the place that I come from. 

12:17  

The ageless way is a metaphor for finding a new story, a new story that we can talk about what age means whether you're 20, and you're being told you're too young and being discriminated against or whether you're 90 and you're being discriminated against. I know I kind of took that away. Did I did I respond to your question? And would you like me to be more specific?

Michelle St Jane  12:40  

Absolutely on point. I love the Ageless Way? I realized I'd turned the corner at 50 then I realized I might live to 120. That was a shocker moment for me. I wasn't even halfway through. For me turning 50 I had a moment.  Unlike 40 I loved. For my 40th I took up belly dancing again and had a great time. 50 I suddenly had huge overwhelming feelings around mortality, and it felt all over. And I don't know where it went.  I felt I had a dark cloud around my shoulders. Strange for me. I'm a very high level optimist and idealist.  I could not have done the things I've done without that high level of optimism and idealism.

Karen Sands  13:28  

Right, exactly.

Michelle St Jane  13:28  

Now, I say to people of any age, and particularly people over 40 if you're going to live to 125, what would you do different? I wish someone had said that to me in my late 30s and 40s. Because I had followed all of the conditions thinking I got my degree, got my career, raised, my kids, bought my house. Oh yeah, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. And I did it all well, and I exhausted myself doing it. 

14:00  

I think that was another thing that happened. 50 was like this is it. Now I'm like what makes me dance to work, where's the joy in the world, you know, I'm not doing 100 hour work weeks anymore. I'm listening to my soul and planning accordingly. 

14:17  

I love the fact that you're talking about an ageless way and I love the fact that there's now a conversation around longevity because I wish someone had said this to me in my 30s and 40s I'd live a heck of a lot differently. But I didn't know better. But typical too, my career changes.  Once I got to the top of each heap. I mean, I not think much of the view. I had to go back down that ladder and find another hill or wall to climb.  

Karen Sands  14:45  

I understand it completely.

Michelle St Jane  14:48  

I love that you're blazing these new trails as you call it. I'm curious to hear your thoughts around health impacts. One of the very fast comebacks I get from people of any age is, oh, I don't want to live to 109. Like, why? I'm investing in the quality of my life, and how that would look as opposed to looking at the quantity. But health impacts are a big one. And you know, the levels of dementias and cancers and heart disease. What are your thoughts, Karen?

Karen Sands  15:30  

Let's see how I want to respond to that. Because it's a great question. Maybe it starts with longevity. Longevity is based on three factors that they found in a lot of research. And that's: purpose, optimism and resiliency. So to me, that's could be at 98. Or it could be at 50. It could be a 30 doesn't really matter. But it's those traits that keep us going. So I don't think it's about the quality of health. First, I think it's the quality of the psyche of the mindset, that if you're focusing and if it comes to you naturally. If not learn how: purpose optimism and resiliency. Then, there shouldn't be an issue growing older. That's the number one for me. But as it relates to health itself.

Michelle St Jane  16:24  

That would be Stephen Hawking would not?

Karen Sands  16:27  

Absolutely, and my two mentors, one of which was celebrating a birthday Sunday is going to be 104-105. She's brilliant and cogent. My dearest mentor is 102. His mind is sharp if not sharper than when I was a protege many, many, many decades ago.

Michelle St Jane  17:00  

We can't really define it this way. First of all, it's, it's who you are.  How you've lived and how you're living that counts, right? But when it comes to health, and putting aside COVID, for the moment, obviously, or any other pandemics that may change this.  But our health is improving. People, especially 50 and above are taking far better care, as a general rule, of their health. We're taking supplements up the wazoo to keep us at wellbeing as we can be, right. 

Karen Sands  17:36  

But it's even more than that we've got artificial intelligence, we've got all the new technology, and technology as an AI in health. That future scope and scape that we're looking at, is going to have a higher quality of health, just because of the science that is driving a new kind of aging. 

18:03  

Now when we talk about Alzheimer's and dementia, which come very close to me, because that's how I got pushed by the universe into the world of aging, I would never have gone this way, voluntarily back then in my early 40s, but I did. There is so much new information that's coming out on this. And there's so much research that still needs to be done. 

18:28  

I think the issue for now, besides the science on what can we do, I mean, I take things so that I can keep mine brain healthy, hopefully to keep from getting those diseases, or at least so far less. But it's it's also more than that. It's using our mind. You know, doing puzzles. I remember I met this doctor on a plane. I was flying back from a university visit out in Arizona, coming back east. I sat next to this really, really nice gentleman.  He was a major medical researcher lo and behold, and he was telling me that the best thing to do to offset that dementia and Alzheimer's was to do a lot of puzzles, anything that would really work in the complexity. Then he said, but you don't have to do that. Now with the kind of work you do. You're doing that all the time. So that's something people need to know.  The more you use your mind and investigate new areas of information you will keep pushing that away, besides what you eat and how you exercise. Those are all critical. 

19:39  

But yes, I don't want to be 100 years old and demented and frail and say give me another 20. No, of course not. I mean, who would choose to do that? But the science at that time, maybe the joints that aren't working, maybe giving me DNA additives if you would. I don't want to close the door. I don't think anybody else should, on the immense potential, because there's also so much innovation going on in the aging longevity sphere. We have no idea of all the good things that are coming towards us that will increase health and quality.

Michelle St Jane  20:21  

Absolutely. Well said, Karen. What's really important to be thinking about, as my best friend, sadly, who passed in March at 98. She always said to me, if you have a health event or worry, deal with it early and fast, and it may pass. The gifts that our sages and wise people give us are invaluable. 

20:55  

There is still a discriminatory environment out there. I see that you're an age career specialist as well. I would love to hear about that, because there's just so much that people can contribute any time of their life, isn't there?

Karen Sands  21:14  

Oh, absolutely.  I think you actually can contribute more later.  Again, based on experience alone, because you've learned, especially boomers. We were taken to our knees with the Great Recession around the world. Boomers, we were like, Hey, we own the world, you know, but the Great Recession knocked us down. And brought us up again. So there was a lot more appreciation in that demographic alone, right. 

21:44  

Now we're facing another with COVID. There's another level of reality check and appreciation and reevaluation going on, especially in the 50 Plus or 40 plus demographics.

21:57  

I don't like doing it by age, because we're not the same just because we're certain age, obviously. But it's a general statement. Right. The opportunities now, this is pre COVID. I'm actually trying to get some new stats to correct some of my stats to make sure I'm really accurate. The opportunities are in the longevity economy. And what that really means is that is a phrase that encompasses that you guys call it the silver economy, also in different countries. We're talking about the same thing, the longevity economy is the amount of goods and services that are created, if you would, the demand for in the marketplace. It is enormous. It's just been raised again, it went from eight, what was it seven something now 8.1 trillion will go to 13.5 or 14.1, that it's changing trillion by 2030. That is an enormous consumer business. A delicious opportunity. This is the world for people who are 40 and over for sure. I'm encouraging people in their 20s. And all the way through to go into this field, because there's so much there for it. And it's going to affect what people don't seem to understand is it's affecting every sector. And within every sector, if you think about how the percentage of people in leadership positions is right. I'm guessing it's got to be 90% that are over the age of 40 in leadership positions. Yet, we're still saying now instead of saying 30 is, is old, right, which is what we did is, you know, boomers in the early days, now it's 40. Well, pretty soon, it's going to end up to 50. Right, etc, etc. So we keep defining it and moving it out more. So it does exist. 

24:01  

One of the things you may not know, besides this work, you know, that I'm doing behind the curtain, so to speak. For the last I guess two and a half years, I have been creating what will be an online Institute which will be covering my whole body of work and more on this topic because I realized that I need to bring best the old educator, right? I need to bring this material out this content out. Especially to professionals who are leveraging change, especially the leaders, right? 

24:36  

Most of them are 40 up right. So even just the idea of how are you going to manage and lead five generations. If you can't value each generation you're gonna have chaos. Right now, we can't do that.  We have to show up big time. 

24:58  

How do I want to say it? The millennials as a grouping, and probably Zoomers as well, but the millennials, they don't see differences. Right. We're just people. I love that about them. Their whole way of seeing the world is something we older folks have to take on. And it's reminiscent of the 1960s. But many of us lost it in the 1960s, when we left the 1960s. I mean, so there's a there's a magnificent magnificence of age and the potential of changing the story with five generations and with the leadership that we have today.

Michelle St Jane  25:37  

I love that so much. I would imagine I'm not alone in this. But I remember the 1991 recession, the 2001 recession, the Great Recession, the bird flu, SARS, I remember having to pivot, be agile. Being expected in Canada to present at a conference, traveling for business everywhere,  to never knowing what country I was in, because all hotel rooms look a like. As I said, at the beginning of the broadcast, you know, leading multimillion dollar deals only to be given coffee preferences. None of these things are unique. None of them are dated. Even though I've titled them, the recessions by years, and pandemics by names they've given you your ability to be agile and pivot or even just see below the surface.  How you bring all boats up with you is incredibly important. But I think 40 plus, generally have experienced these things. We all might have, and our brains have done the meaning making. We've experienced the surviving and thriving.

Karen Sands  26:55  

Exactly.

Michelle St Jane  26:56  

I celebrate your online Institute's coming forward. My work post doctorate is around global leadership, and re-emerging leadership. Reemerging are those who have been in the ‘C suite.’ And they're coming out and saying now what do I do? 

Karen Sands  27:17  

Okay, I want to I'm there with you all the way that they've got to come back out. We need these people. Absolutely.

Michelle St Jane  27:24  

Not the golf courses, the bridge clubs, go do that on your day off. Exactly to that, you know, I just have such a heart that for many people it's the normalized way of thinking and conditioning. Saying, Okay, I need to retire. I'll take board appointments and play golf. 

Karen Sands  27:45  

That said, Well, I'd suggest what else you know, that that's bringing on early, early, old, old age and death.

Michelle St Jane  27:58  

I've been encouraging different ideas like, hey, become an angel investor.  Let's finds really fabulous startups they need your executive expertise, or you'll finance, or, you know, whatever is it that lights you up. Bring it.  Or just cheerleading on the side? The introductions and networks of connections?

Karen Sands  28:17  

Absolutely, absolutely.

Michelle St Jane  28:19  

Don't leave the innovating and creating with the young. Collaborate and then as we lift them up, we innovate and create together because, you know, there's amazing ideas out there that when you put us all together, you get these wonderful outcomes. 

Karen Sands  28:35  

Exactly, exactly. So it's a win win win all around. Absolutely. Absolutely. So what's it going to take first,?

28:45  

That's some of what I'm putting into my courses that I'm developing for this institute.  It's going to take an internal look first, because the ageism within is almost more detrimental than the external ages. Yeah, so that's a big piece of this.

Michelle St Jane  29:03  

Absolutely. As I alluded to my turning 50 moment, you put the right words there. I didn't have the lexicon. I was doing the work within and clearly I've given it a couple of hammers on the head now.

29:21  

We just have the most amazing spirits and souls and willingness out there. Just how do we create the avenues towards opportunities. I've discovered I'm one of those people who has to go and make the path by walking it and talking about it. 

Karen Sands  29:39  

Exactly. Exactly. People expect, especially young people, I think, they still expect success to come quickly. It doesn't work that way. I've been at this since I was in my early 40s. Probably even before that, but consciously in my early 40s. That's a long time. Whether it's 36 years,

Michelle St Jane  30:02  

That's very interesting.  I did an exercise recently deconstructing every decade of my life.  I pulled out the learnings. I pulled out what I didn't like. And then I just laid it on the table and focused on what contributed to my future and blessed and gifted back to the university the energy of what didn't. What it showed me was the story of my life was incrementally building like, the avenues I took, what I wouldn't do and think about raising my consciousness. If I hadn't had all those wonderful experiences, as I often tell my mentees, the desert doesn't flower without the rain. I'm sure I'm quoting someone, I'll have to find it. It's a good one. No, I like it. Yeah, yeah. And I'm sitting on an island in hurricane alley.

Karen Sands  31:02  

Exactly, exactly.

Michelle St Jane  31:04  

Karen, I would just love for you to speak to what you do. How listeners can contact you. The kind of work? Absolutely,

Karen Sands  31:13  

Well, I'll share what happened to me, I was on this road. As I said, building this out. I should call it the the institute that I'm building.  It's going to be called the Ageless Way Academy, obviously. But I realized when COVID, at least when it came to the States, or at least when we knew it came to the states in March. And then the day that the crash came where it went negative, right? And I went now watch.

31:46  

I looked at my husband, who is also an entrepreneur, and I realized, Oh, we have got to be reevaluating. We're both, you know, an entrepreneur household.  It is not easy in these times, of course. I sat there and I realized that I might be being called to something else. That may be this may be my Institute, which is still my vision. It's my dear my lifelong legacy. But I had to put it aside. 

32:18  

I said, what people need now is not what they're going to need in 2021- 22. So learning about the longevity economy and how to leverage it and how to find a new future. I'll talk about that always, but especially early 2021. 

32:37  

But right now, I realized back in March, that what people needed was they needed a place to come to find pause, to get permission to pause, learn what's going on, learn how to look at the future and their place in it, and then begin to begin to pivot. It's really the early pre stages of reinvention in essence. And I did it around navigating the unknown, the buffer times because we have no clue when this is all going to lift certainly not in the States, it maybe different where you are, but certainly not stateside.  

33:19  

I started something called 'Future Proof Forum.' It's every Monday it is gratis, I gift my time. Because I felt I had to give back. And I will tell you it is the sweetest experience for me because I'm getting back even more than I'm giving out. They may say otherwise. But I know how I feel about it. So it's a free forum. It's not therapy. It's not a group. And it's not a course it's a place to come. An anchorage so that we have some sort of a way forward if you would. Each session is about bringing all of our thoughts to the surface on what's going on and how we move forward. It has been incredible. And I welcome everyone to it, it's free. I'm going to do it as long as people keep coming. I will keep offering it every Monday, East Coast time. noon, it's only 45 minutes, so anybody can do it. There's always a replay. So that's the first thing I want people to know. Come play with me. Come play with the people that come play with me about how we're going to navigate to the new norm. Whatever that new normal might look like. 

34:33  

The other thing I'm doing, I started on what I call an E-column. I mail it out every Saturday morning to people who have signed up for it or on my list. And it's called "Time with Sands." Because what I was finding is that my ego but it was more that I was finding people kept asking me questions, and I'd be an isolated answer, you know, or or be on an interview and they'd still want that answer. This is a compilation of all the questions I've been asked. One at a time each Saturday, there's a question. then I give a not very long answer, just a two sentence answer. You could also get that on my site karensands.com/timewithsands or the one on Monday is karensands.com/vuca for VUCA times (Volatility, Uncertainty, Complexity & Ambiguity).  Those two things are my freebies that I want everybody to take advantage of. It's just content and come visit my site. 

35:35  

I give a lot of free content and other things there. The other thing I offer this book, called "The Greatness Challenge." And I just put it up on my site, and I'm just starting to publicize it as an E-book for $4.99. It's a real deal. It's the book that I believe you need to read now for the times we're in right now. May not be so a year from now, but right now. I'd like people to know about it. That's why I reduced the price so much because it's so timely. You can go to Amazon and get it or you can go to my website and get it for US$4.99. 

36:26  

What else can I tell you about? I'm just out there all the time. I'm on LinkedIn, I want people to, you know, have a conversation, bring this to the forefront. Help me change the story. That's what we've got to do. I'm bringing programs out to corporations and leaders next year.

Michelle St Jane  36:46  

Karen, thank you for your generosity of spirit and your contribution and being in this world. I am very grateful.

Karen Sands  36:54  

I am grateful that you're here to allow me to speak and to hear what you're doing is just phenomenal.

Reach out.  I am interested, do you have a topic you'd like to explore? It would be great to have your feedback.

Dr. Michelle St Jane

Podcast Host: Life & Leadership: A Conscious Journey 

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