I believe the narrative is collapsing around Sex, love, power.
Traditional acceptance today of the relationship contract whereby a man's possessions and protection are exchanged for a woman's fertility and fidelity does not seem to be work.
Yet love remains central in our lives – consciously or subconsciously…
Pandemic pauses aside, escape fantasies are normal.
Is this is a hot topic for you – if so listen to a very rich conversation with Michele Lisenbury Christensen.
Knowledge Bombs:
Bullet Points:
Mentions:
Episodes mentioned
Gift
About the Guest
About the Show
Podcast Host: Life & Leadership: A Conscious Journey with Michelle St Jane
A podcast for Global and Re-Emerging Leadership creating a circle of influence, transcendency of compassionate leadership in the world and wider universe. A unique destination for learning about Leadership + Conscious Stewardship + Legacy.
Social media accounts:
Website
Facebook
Instagram
LinkedIn
Twitter
SUBSCRIBE to this show on your favorite platform:
I believe the narrative is collapsing around Sex, love, power.
Traditional acceptance today of the relationship contract whereby a man's possessions and protection are exchanged for a woman's fertility and fidelity does not seem to be work.
Yet love remains central in our lives – consciously or subconsciously…
Pandemic pauses aside, escape fantasies are normal.
Is this is a hot topic for you – if so listen to a very rich conversation with Michele Lisenbury Christensen.
Knowledge Bombs:
Bullet Points:
Mentions:
Episodes mentioned
Gift
About the Guest
About the Show
Podcast Host: Life & Leadership: A Conscious Journey with Michelle St Jane
A podcast for Global and Re-Emerging Leadership creating a circle of influence, transcendency of compassionate leadership in the world and wider universe. A unique destination for learning about Leadership + Conscious Stewardship + Legacy.
Social media accounts:
Website
Facebook
Instagram
LinkedIn
Twitter
SUBSCRIBE to this show on your favorite platform:
Michelle St Jane 00:01
Welcome to Life and Leadership. I believe in creating community and actions and creating space to be curious. This podcast aims to take you on a conscious journey to quality, diverse, innovative content in conversation.
00:18
My hope is that we create a circle of influence, a transcendent sea of compassionate leadership in the world, and wider universe. Can you imagine having the relationship you desire in Life and Leadership while in Pandemic Pauses. This can be a windy journey of isolation, or to live, live to work and the rest of it. Your heart's desires or loved ones may take a rung lower on the ladder than you may care to admit.
00:51
Creating the love and sex you want simply requires and you might see it in practicing a few keys goals and habits according to intimacy podcast host of Sex Love and Power. The inquiring, brilliant Michele Lisenbury Christensen is dedicated to helping powerful woman create deeply satisfying love and sex and committed long term relationships. Hold up! This is a good episode for men. Listen, it could be inspiring for you.
01:23
I'm your host, Michelle St Jane. This podcast is a bounty of rich information for men and women. Michele is passionate about high profile couples and increasing their skills and commitment to create what they desire and love and sex. Getting more peace, more connection, more passion in your days and nights.
01:46
So, if you've got the energy and attention left over to be the change you wish to be in the wider world, can only be a good thing, don't you think? Why is this an important topic? I believe the narrative is collapsing around relationship. Escape fantasies are more than norm. Traditional acceptance today of the relationship contract whereby a man's possessions and protection are exchanged for a woman's fertility and fidelity does not seem to be working.
02:17
Yet love remains central in our lives, consciously or subconsciously. If this is a hot topic for you, listen up. There are knowledge bombs, great guidance and a rich conversation to listen to. And it's coming up on Life and Leadership: A Conscious Journey. Welcome in Life and Leadership. Threatening traumatic times and pandemic size pauses can change our perceptions and our priorities.
02:39
Welcome to the podcast, Life and Leadership with Michele Lisenbury Christensen. Michele, I'm so thrilled to have you on board today. Did you get into your area by choice or by chance?
Michele Lisenbury Christensen 03:02
Oh, boy, I think it was very much by choice and almost like a too good to be true, "pinch me, I must be dreaming," kind of thing. I'm a relationship coach for leaders today. About a dozen, you know, 12 to 14 years ago, I was an executive coach, which I had been at that time for more than a decade. More and more of my clients would come to me and say, "You know, Michelle, I know we're still stuck about my leadership team today." And they would almost whisper like, "Can we talk about my marriage", because talking about marriage is so taboo. People don't want to, you know, they want to wait, they want to hope that things can work out. That they don't need help with it. Then they wait until it's really painful before they go see a therapist. Then going and seeing a therapist is often really painful and doesn't really hit what they really needed. I think I was a trusted advisor in their lives. They loved me and knew me as their leadership coach. They felt like they could talk to me. And the more they did, the more I wanted to do that. It was like a guilty pleasure. It was like, “do I really get to do this?” I get to talk about these things with these amazing high-performance people.
04:14
What I learned was that they already had really good marriages in lots of ways. They just wanted them to be even better. That's how I got to be a relationship coach.
04:22
Then backing up like how did I get to be in the human performance field? I always knew that I was fascinated with human potential. Like as a little girl, I taught myself to meditate. I was really into spirituality.
04:38
As soon as I discovered like Tony Robbins, I wanted to be like him. But as an undergraduate, I majored in economics because it was the science of choice. I didn't want to be a psychology major because at my school that was all like rat labs, and abnormal psychology like studying serial killers and people who had to live hospitalized. That wasn't the kind of psychology I wanted to study at all. I wanted to study the psychology of human performance.
05:05
I think from at least a fairly young age, this is what I wanted to do. But I did used to dream of being a Supreme Court Justice one day, and was a Youth Court Judge, like bona-fides courtroom and got to wear a robe and rule on actual cases in high school. So that's just a fun fact now.
Michelle St Jane 05:24
It was one of my past careers before I decided to try podcasting this year. Ruth Bader Ginsburg was my hero from way back. In fact, when she finished law school was around the time I was born. She went on the bench about the same time as I was practicing as a barrister. Then, I went on to do some work on the bench as well and started a social enterprise law firm. So, law, similar to psychology, is a great launching pad. I just feel so passionate about re-emerging leaders, because this is like what I call my fourth career. And gifting myself a year podcasting, to make it or break it, but the fun will be worth it, for sure.
Michele Lisenbury Christensen 06:05
Awesome.
Michelle St Jane 06:06
What a fascinating story. Yes. You never know what you want to be when you grow up. Or you might like I did this year during the big pandemic pause. I decided, I don't want to go back into an office, I don't want to get on another plane. I want to buy a mic and design some cover art and some really wild topics for each episode. Yes.
06:24
First, I'd love to get into a discussion about around being in relationship creating longevity and quality. This seems to be one of your magic areas.
Michele Lisenbury Christensen 06:34
So, I find that love is one of those central things in life that we're all hungry for. So, when people are single, they talked to me about wanting to find the right person and create the kind of relationship that can be really nourishing. And you know, in some senses, we know the problems of what we have. We know, we know the downside of the situation we sit in right now. And we can see the upside of a situation that we're not in. So, when you're not in a relationship, you look at people in relationships and go, "Oh, I want one of those."
07:05
Then a lot of the people who are in relationship come and talk to me about the challenges they face being in relationship. I should know those I've been married for 20 years to the man I've been in love with for 23. I know, it's not easy, sustaining love.
07:31
Biologically, we're set up to be young, and randy, and make babies when we're 17 or so. Biology doesn't seem to care a whole lot about us being super into each other after that, you know. Our biology sort of draws upon our long history in human evolution of being part of a pretty tight knit village. You have some babies with somebody, but it doesn't really matter if the two of you are super tight knit, because you've got nieces and cousins and aunties, and the kids get raised by all of us together. We don't have to be monogamous. We don't have to stick together as a couple, it can all work out.
08:02
Right now, in our culture, we're really much more siloed. And so, people are much more reliant on that one person. So, it's that much more important to stick together and to draw deeper and closer as time goes on. But in many ways, it's that much harder to do so as well, because our relationships just don't seem to get the same kind of support that they really need in order to thrive.
Michelle St Jane 08:26
Sometimes we're in relationship for a reason, a season or a lifetime. In my first marriage my husband died after 10 years. That took a lot of work in processing. How do you go forward? I didn't get that choice. It was taken away from me. So, you know, He was the man who didn't believe in going to be mad. You had to talk it out. He believed in time with his family and his children. I'm looking at the stress for people in relationship this year suddenly finding themselves 24/7 in the same space because of quarantines and lockdowns. Do you have any tips for people doing time together?
Michele Lisenbury Christensen 09:16
Oh boy, doing time is the right phrase, isn't it? Well, it's so funny, just today my family is here. We all live together. Now the kids go to school right in this building. I work here and always have, and my husband works here, kind of part of the time, although he's a project manager for a construction company. So, he is going right now he's on the jobsite. He's building a new courthouse.
09:40
This morning my husband was here, I was carrying a cat up the stairs. And that's not a good idea. I can't recommend that. Don't carry a cat upstairs because the cat freaked out. And Michelle I don't know if you can see this, but he scratched my neck, he scratched my nose, my eyebrow. I let out this scream like I do. I have a lot of sensitivities, physically. I was noisy. I alarmed my husband. Now it's pretty early in the morning, he was up and in his office. He yells, "God damn!". He uttered something, and then my feelings got hurt.
10:14
I just share this as, like an example. Right after that he was very solicitous and had lots for room for me and my wounds, and you know, cared a lot. His initial reaction was one of irritation because he too, was startled. So, it's like, the noise I made, I couldn't help. The noise he made; he couldn't really help. And that's doing time together. It is the way I am, is gonna be rubbing up against you and your needs. And the way you are, is going to rub up against me. And so that natural friction,
10:46
I just have so much compassion for all of us who are living right up in each other's grills right now. It's just painful. So, the tips really are just remembering:
11:06
I tell my kids, "You know how annoying it is to live with your sister, because you live with her. You don't know how annoying it would be to live with that friend or his sister or whoever else, because you don't live with them.” That's the beauty of intimacy, that we know the best in each other, and we know the worst in each other. We can remember that and kind of take it with a grain of salt. It feels less dramatic.
11:29
We get less of that escape fantasy. I think a lot of us have thoughts about divorce. We sometimes have thoughts about fratricide, or killing our children, killing ourselves. I don't mean to make light at all have true suicidal ideation. But truly the thought, just the transient thought of like, I could get out of here. I think of as an escape fantasy. And I just want to normalize that for everybody. Like I get it, that "of course you do."
11:58
If we can kind of keep a sense of humor about that, it's really helpful. And then certainly, you know, I've heard a lot of this advice, but I guess I'm immersed in this world. Really crucial to remember Maslow's hierarchy of needs and take care of yourself. Because:
Being together so many hours a day, that's got heightened importance. Then make sure you're not together all the time. It's really okay to set boundaries. It's really okay to say, "Hey, can we have a meta conversation?" No, not in the moment that you need more time, but just to say,
"Hey, can we kind of plan our weeks out to make sure that I have time alone in the house? I can really let my guard down sometimes?"
What kind of time alone do you need? Does it need to be here? Or do you need to out for bike rides or walks.
Just make sure that everybody's needs for solitude, as well as togetherness, get met because it can all get kind of muddy and blurred in.
11:06
Early in the quarantine, our dates fell apart, because there's nowhere to go. We stopped leaving every Wednesday night like we had done religiously since Cooper was born. We really missed it. It took us a little bit to realize that was what was missing. So, we got back to taking date nights. Even though we still often don't go out. We let the kids know we're on a date and we're much more intentional about it. So those are a couple of tips. Any other specific questions that arise for you, Michelle?
Michelle St Jane 13:35
Wow, I can really relate to how you were talking. I reference it from neurology, the old brain. I often have to catch myself with the HANGRY, or being hungry and angry, lonely and tired, HALT is another of the acronyms I like. You know, with the old brain you can be in freeze, flight or fight. I don't fight. I very rarely will freeze, but I sure, as hell, run.
Michele Lisenbury Christensen 14:06
We all have a favorite, don't we?
Michelle St Jane 14:08
I'm a runner. Believe me, I feel like fighting is of no benefit. Mind you, there's room for good fight if I choose to. But I'm not someone who gets triggered to anger very easily. That's my one and I have to recognize. I do like quiet space. This is 2020 it’s made me very creative and innovative on how I get space even if it's in far back of the part of the property.
Michele Lisenbury Christensen 14:35
Yeah.
Michelle St Jane 14:36
I've got chairs in different corners and around corners so out of sight, out of mind.
Michele Lisenbury Christensen 14:41
Perfect. I just want to mention really quickly for, for listeners who are interested my podcast, Sex Love Power. You know anywhere you listen to podcasts, you can find Sex Love Power, and episodes five and six are about respectively, the freeze response and the fight or flight response because that is so crucial in relationship. Often, we think our partner is stonewalling, or they're picking fights with us all the time. And it's really about their state.
Michelle St Jane 15:09
I will put a reference and link in the show notes so people can go directly to your podcast.
Michele Lisenbury Christensen 15:15
That'd be really helpful. There's a downloadable PDF Quick Guide that can help you manage your own state and learn to recognize when your partner is in, you know, if somebody just clams up. A lot of times we think they're deliberately being withholding. But they may be in a brain state of freeze and literally unable to speak.
Michelle St Jane 15:35
Yes.
Michele Lisenbury Christensen 15:36
So, it's really crucial to know and that saves marriages.
Michelle St Jane 15:39
Absolutely. I'm also noticing there’s a trend of people who are in relationship developing a new appreciation for their partners or their relationships. Have you seen that at all?
Michele Lisenbury Christensen 15:51
For sure? You mean during this COVID time like really seeing, "Oh wow, you are amazing." I think that a lot of what has happened, you know, the quarantine has been really difficult in lots of ways without a doubt. Certainly, I have been privileged and so we are physically safe here and economically safe. I don't at all, want to gloss over the fact that many people are encountering tremendous hardship. And that in homes where there's domestic violence, there's, that's all the more dangerous now. But short of those things where life has gotten really precarious, or a lot of people, there's a slowing down, that was needed before quarantine. And inside that slowing down, the best in people has come out. So not only do people have more space to appreciate what is there, I think there's more there to appreciate. So here, for instance, my husband has refinished all the floors, in our downstairs, this pink color that you may see behind me. I don't know what it looks like on camera, but it's a very pale kind of room feeling color to me. We repainted everything. And he has been doing some amazing home projects. He started both foraging for herbs, and then buying other herbs and botanicals and making his own tinctures, which then has him like feeling like a million bucks in his body. There's just been this real renaissance in this man. And so yeah, there's a ton to appreciate. I think that a lot of people have been playing their music more or crafting more. Doing things that make them feel more alive. And between the two of them, it feels amazing. I hope that we can hang onto that when the world opens up again. And we can go back to the movies and go out to dinner and all that I hope that we do keep that space in our lives.
Michelle St Jane 17:40
You, because many people would never have experienced that I used to work 80-100-hour work weeks. I certainly have stopped that in the last five years. But I was really astounded when I came to a stop. And I couldn't do all that I did and decided to pivot to do something I've never done before.
17:57
I'm going to move on to the next topic. How do you go about resolving or dissolving your relationship? If you find being stuck together 24/7, there’s preexisting conditions. COVID has just put the cosh on it. How do you go about doing that?
Michele Lisenbury Christensen 18:14
That’s a huge question. I'm gonna presume for the sake of answering it, that really, it's clear that the two of you are not meant to go forward. You're clear and in your heart on that, and it takes a lot to get to that place. I hope it does. Because the bottom line is that wherever we go, there we are, you know. So, before somebody ends a relationship, I really caution them. Like, you know, it's likely that the dynamics that make you crazy with this person will happened in one form or another with other people beforehand, and quite likely, you will go. You will find someone else. You'll be really glad you left. You will fall in love again. You'll have that bliss of early relationship. And then within months or years, you will look at your new partner and go, "Wait a minute, you're doing it too!" And they will drive you crazy, in the same way or a slightly different way. Or, you know, like 90 degrees opposite way because you chose someone who didn't have the same qualities but had opposite qualities that now, equally drive you crazy. So, remembering that kind of human condition that, you know, being human is intrinsically painful. We're often dissatisfied by a lot of things. And our partners are really handy hooks on which to hang that dissatisfaction.
Michelle St Jane 19:36
Handy hooks. That's really good. So, I would be interested in hearing a tip for the person who's leaving and a tip for the person who’s left.
Michele Lisenbury Christensen 19:46
Thank you. You've decided to leave, you know that. Yep. Our journey here is over. It's time for us to transition our relationship to a different kind of relationship. You may be familiar with the notion of conscious uncoupling. So, for both people, that's my number one tip, is get that book, seek out a conscious uncoupling coach. Do the process of really celebrating what you have been together, and really looking at:
It's really handy, again, with a handy hook. Really handy to hang all of it on your partner, and brush your hands and say, "Good riddance!" That's a recipe for repeating the same unhealthy patterns.
20:32
If you are leaving, in particular, really get clear for yourself:
21:10
If you're being left, recognize that things can look like they're happening to us. But they're happening for us as well. When something's not our choice, we can err on the side of feeling victimized. Feeling like we, we want them, you know.
21:27
I can remember numerous boyfriends who broke up with me who I was sort of lukewarm on until they wanted to break up. Then I was heartbroken. Just because I didn't like not being a choice. So, you know, you're not at choice if your partner is the one who has decided unilaterally to leave. Or you may have some ambivalence, even though you decided jointly.
21:47
Really sit with both sides of it, you know, sit with what was good for you in this relationship, and what wasn't? And where did you contribute to the relationship’s wellbeing? And where did you lose yourself? Where did you stop contributing? What mattered most to you? And then what do you most want in a new relationship?
Michelle St Jane 22:06
Number three being single again and again and again. I love your advice about, you know, where did you contribute, where did you not contribute to your best in a past relationship. The pandemic is causing real challenges on how you meet people, virtual dating and that sort of thing. I'm an in-person person. I'm coaxing people out of their houses and saying, well, let's be COVID careful. That we're social beings. It's not healthy for us to do everything screen to screen. Godlike technology has some amazing benefits, but to the exclusion of any social interaction. That's going to be making a lot of people single again, single again, and again. Any tips some how do you create opportunities to connect them and find potential new partners?
Michele Lisenbury Christensen 22:59
Yeah, well, the book Sex at Dawn is wonderful for recognizing that maybe we’re not necessarily built to be long term, monogamous, you know. Maybe we're built to be polyamorous, and maybe we're built to be serial monogamous. I don't think it's really a problem to be single again, and again, if it is by choice.
23:22
If you do find that you have breakups over and over, and you don't want to. You don't want to keep leaving people, or you don't want people to keep ending relationships with you. You’re starting to get a data set around it, it’s really useful to kind of plot that data, chart it and notice the patterns.
23:59
You know, there's, there's lots of ways that we can show up and ways that are conducive to us getting what we need, and to nourishing another person and lots of ways we can show up that undermine both of those. So deep self-reflection is the most potent medicine I know for healing related relationship patterns.
24:18
In terms of meeting new people during this time, I think it's a great, I love your strategy of sort of saying, look, we're in a pandemic, sure and I don't want to get or transmit COVID. However, we do know ways to be safe. Let's make sure that we get creative and find ways to be together. So, taking walks, you know, eating together, three feet apart doesn't work right now. You got to be unmasked to eat and so you know, you cannot go out for coffee or, or dinner right now with a new person. But you can absolutely take a walk, even have a distance picnic where you sit six feet apart, and you can both eat if you're in a climate that is conducive to that.
25:00
I think there's a lot that can be gained from corresponding and writing, yeah, texting. Even I recommend texting very highly for married couples who do see each other every night. Because the poet in us is often not verbal. There's something that comes out when we write longhand, or even typing, we can kind of let our thoughts fly.
25:23
I would encourage people who are dating right now to take advantage of some of the constraints, right. Constraints make the art always, and so look at some of the constraints as ways that they can be blessings. This won't last forever. And if you're meant to meet somebody now, then that's because you're meant to have this magical chapter.
25:41
Kurt and I were apart for three months when he lived in Rome, during architecture school, and I was still stateside for most of that. And then I get to go over and reunite with him. But this was in 1998, the internet cafe was way over there, and he had to walk a long way to get to it. And he would often rather than going and sending me an email on my probably AOL email address, he would send me faxes, he would write longhand, and fax me letters. I would fax him back. And that's such a romantic memory now. And I wouldn't trade it for anything. I hope that other people are making those kinds of memories now of virtual dates, or texts, or emails, or even longhand letters.
Michelle St Jane 26:26
I have always had a practice of sending postcards. That's become terribly difficult because getting to a post office, getting to buy postcards, getting stamps has all become quite a big mission. My family's been very global. And I always send postcards and my aunt, once saw me last century sitting down in a cafe on a Monday, writing postcards. And she said her grandfather used to do that. My paternal grandparents to come out to New Zealand, from Wales, and my great grandfather used to write every Monday. And then I was doing the tradition without even knowing that there was this family tradition, from the beginning of the century. I had done this for a long time.
Michele Lisenbury Christensen 27:10
Beautiful.
Michelle St Jane 27:11
My collection of postcards is exhausted, and my stamps are exhausted. And it's just tough. I love the faxes as another fun way of doing things. I love handwriting. And I think it's a great way to collect up some memories to too precious to forget and create a treasure box around that for sure. Remember now faxes fade!
Michele Lisenbury Christensen 27:35
Yes. Now, you know, with social media being so big, we can write longhand, and take a photo of it. And post that on social media.
Michelle St Jane 27:44
I love that.
Michele Lisenbury Christensen 27:44
There's no reason that we can't be both analog and digital at the same time.
Michelle St Jane 27:49
Absolutely. Oh, just in wrapping this up, Michele. Do you want to share about your services or any other parts of your work that listeners might want to reach out to you about?
Michele Lisenbury Christensen 27:59
Sure. I work with people, either 1-1 or 2-1, I work with couples a lot even though a lot of the time we spend together is separate. And my private coaching is really customizable, but really focused on action. And my programs for groups, starting with reignite the spark, is a 30-day experience to double the turn on and closeness in your relationship. You can inquire about either of those by reaching out to me via my website at Lisenbury.com and there's lots of information about those things there. And to get to know me better, I think the best way now is to listen to every Thursday for a new episode of Sex Love Power, where I talk just like we've been talking today:
Thank you so much for having me, Michelle.
Michelle St Jane 28:57
Oh, it's incredibly important, the work that you do, and I am a big fan of less discussed conversations and getting it out there. My work is around global leaders. When you transition to another country, not of your culture, no family connections, isolation can be a big, big challenge. If you're putting everything on your soulmate to keep you together, that usually lands on the shoulders of women.
Michele Lisenbury Christensen 29:22
Yeah.
Michelle St Jane 29:23
Not always a value add for the relationship and, you know, working hard on it. So thank you so much for all your contributions to the space. And I appreciate your being willing to be hosted today. Thank you.
Michele Lisenbury Christensen 29:36
Thank you so much for inviting me. It's delightful to be with you and I'm such a fan of your work. I celebrate all the ways that emerging and reemerging leaders, all of you listeners. I love the ways that you are creating the world that we need. So keep listening and keep growing and thank you for listening today.
Michelle St Jane 29:59
As a student of meaningful leadership in the world and wider cosmos, I have a passion for service through sharing wisdom, faith, and hope. Thank you for the opportunity to foster open conversation, discussions, and an exchange of ideas that create understanding and connection among diverse groups. Your support is valued. Please subscribe, leave a review and a rating. More importantly, share with your connections. Thank you.
Reach out. I am interested, do you have a topic you'd like to explore? It would be great to have your feedback.
Dr. Michelle St Jane
Podcast Host: Life & Leadership: A Conscious Journey
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